Playsaurus, developers of Clicker Heroes and Clicker Heroes 2, are allegedly getting shaken down by patent trolls for using “virtual currency” in their game. Let’s discuss.
Their blog post:
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michael huss
22.10.2022The best part is that, even if the patent is challenged and eventually struck down, the money that has already changed hands for it will stay in the trolls' wallets; The settlements typically have language for the transfer to survive invalidation of the patents-in-suit. In this day and age, how is this still legal? (Rhetorical; I know the people who can fix it have no motivation to)
Zarkow
17.10.2022Software patents is pure BS.
Benjamin Berger
17.10.2022420 Patent blaze it …. I am sorry. Go burn those guys, Playsaurus.
I'm going up in smokes with those puns…
k goblin
17.10.2022Some thoughts from a software developer of ~10 years… went to school for my field right around the early 2000s:
Software patents are complete bullshit, they should never have been permitted in any form. I say this on the same basis that you aren't allowed to patent math equations… the process/implementation is essentially a pure application of logic & mathematics. Patents like '838 should have failed muster on that reasoning alone, without even needing to get to the abstract vs specific that Leonard touched on.
From a business perspective… software patents are also not required for the general justification for patents… to protect the initial inventor & their interests as a reward for enriching the nations technology. The problems are that the software industry simply moves to fast for that aspect to be relevant, and that there are literally a million ways to skin a cat, so rather than a patented algorithm earning any money it instead just dies on the vine, as cheapskate developers just come up with an alternative solution to avoid incurring licence fees. Note how this ALSO results in the propagation of inferior methods & algorithms… because no one wants to adopt the legally encumbered current best-of-breed.
Bottom line: most of the smart creators of software worry far more about building and maintaining a useful & appealing product… not trying to 'protect' something which will be retired in 1/2 a decade with patents. The only valid business reason to seek getting software patents is to unethically restrict your competition from being able to compete.
See also the Oracle vs Google case re: Android & the Java Virtual Machine…. where Oracle lost every patent the referenced in that case as they were systematically found to be invalid.
Regarding patent agents in the USA… it has been a long standing rumor that the USPTO not only lacks expertise regarding software development & computer science… but is PROUD to lack said expertise… viewing it as some lesser, less professional/rigourous variant of more traditional engineering fields. I can't say for sure if there is any virtue to that rumor… but the rumor does exist, and is reinforced by the USPTO's dismal history of accepting patents that obviously break every reasonable standard for what should be patentable, not just the math or abstract standards but blatantly obvious prior art issues.
Maurice Fleenor
17.10.2022Hey leonard ive been seeing alot of ads for the game "arc of war" and first thing i noticed is the litterally stole clips from other sci fi space game namely deadnought. Is this something you would cover. On a cursory search of the trailer almost every comment references different games that are being ripped off. Thanks for all your videos and taking time too do all the hard work you do.
Kucing miu miu
17.10.2022Actually, Mr. French patent examiners are not always lawyer. There are patent examiners who hold law degrees. Most of the time patent examiner are people who hold “hard” science degree that had been trained by the USPTO. They are the first set of people who will make the patentability call tho
Zz Zzzz
17.10.2022SMH Defended patent lawyers…
Zex Maxwell
17.10.2022thanks for a little over view of this issue. I respect the fact that you make it clear that you are not a patent lawyer.
Android Kenobi
17.10.2022"go away" money should be illegal?
matthigast
17.10.2022Am I glad I didn't go through with my law studies…
All this sounds Chinese to me
Adondriel
17.10.2022The money could be verified, but the data could still be stored exclusively on the client. This just means that people can hack their local amount of rubies, but that is probably already known.
BewbsOP
11.10.2022ok, so while I personal consider the use of in game currency and microtransactions in general to be rather scummy, patent trolling is still a damn awful thing to do.
Slarti Bartfast
11.10.2022Well, Clicker Heroes is available through Steam as well (and who knows what other distribution services), and I have no idea if Steam paid licensing fees also, or even if the ruby transactions are handled by Steam. Granted, this is all bogus anyway, but it seems like they can't hide behind Apple and Google solely.
qwcew
11.10.2022Have a like for Dancing Nico.
CaptainCadenza
11.10.2022This claim is clearly bs but did anyone else shudder a little when they said they only tracked micro-transactions client-side? I hate when apps do that, on Android it makes it really hard to restore your purchases sometimes. Maybe I'm missing something, or their game is simple enough that it doesn't really matter.
ZerqTM
11.10.2022Patent trolling should be punishable by flame thrower firing squad…
That would cut down on this bullshit quickly.
possibly also Crucifixion, impairment, maybe use of the pear of agony…. live flaying possibly… (maybe salting the skin and sewing it back on)
Crime and punishment was just way better in the good old days…
Lee Stark
11.10.2022I looked at the patent. It is 26 pages of a CONCEPT of how digital commerce works. It contains a bunch of flow charts and descriptions of the concept. NO actual software!
Charles Edmonds
11.10.2022During the 10yrs I worked as a dev for a large grocery distribution company we got probably 4 to 5 of these notices from patent troll shells like this. It's sometimes hillarious when you go look up the patent to find out whats going on. One of the VPs was a lawyer and he used to have a morbid amount of funny sitting down going over these thing with me and another tech dept. head.
Nimarus
11.10.2022I hope the patent trolls get destroyed.
Skywise
11.10.2022Should make a gif of them dancing 🙂
Really well explained by their filing I thought. Is that email you want stories sent to in general?
Tarii
11.10.2022why haven't they gone after EA though? would be damn nice to see them lawfully forced to stop mt's
The BronyCrafters
10.10.2022This is one of the good games that doesn't force or strain the player for microtransactions. I must do my part and support them to fight this bogus claim.
colekiddo
10.10.2022Hey all, I actually have an interesting patent situation that could use some fresh eyes. My friends and I have discussed this as length but none of us are patent attorneys. Any suggestions on who I might share this with on YouTube?
Relations99
10.10.2022California canser warning on Coffee pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Bismuth Crystal
10.10.2022Anyone who has a trial involving a dog, feel free to call on me, and I will identify that dog as a dog. I am an expert witness on this subject. Side note, I have a disorder where I giggle uncontrollably.
QuickNET
10.10.2022Would love to see you cover the Take-two Interactive Software, Inc. V. Zipperer case. T2I is suing Mr. Zipperer for copyright infringement. Mr Zipperer was a developer of cheat software for GTA Online who signed an agreement to cease any and all work on GTA Online about a year ago when he was the developer of a cheat known as Authority. He was recently caught by T2I working on another cheat by the name of Absolute and is now being taken to court. Love the content, keep it up!
officialmcdeath
10.10.2022Plurality of account //
thehALomolov2
10.10.2022… the way they explain to verify that it's client side isn't complete… They only outline that you can redeem rubies without a internet connection, says absolutely nothing about purchasing rubies which of course requires a connection to servers to verify the transactions and Playsourys would need records of all transactions requiring a connection…
Claiming clientside is like claiming a car is user driven… If the manufacturer infringes on a patent, the car being user driven doesn't protect them for their wrong doing…
The defence compares the 'trolls' patent to a chuck E cheese and says it's such a basic idea that both are unpatentable… Except does the defence not realize that the token distribution machines are patented and/or use patented material… All the patient 'troll' did was outline and change the delivery method to the cover vitural environment.
So overall, the Apple and Android stores already payed the fees for using this patent, which shouldn't have been issued to begin with. All app makers use user accounts through Apple and andriod to process transactions, distancing developers from violating the bogus patient.
lap tech
10.10.2022If the patent is questionable in such that there maybe a hint that it is actually not patent-able and therefore able to be challenged, surely both Apple and Google with their billions in $ would have gone to court and challenged the patent rather than just pay a license. The fact neither company challenged the patent says the patent must have some legal grounding.
AusSkiller
10.10.2022If you can seek to get your legal fees paid for in a frivolous suit like this would it not make sense to simply threaten them with hiring the most expensive team of lawyers you can find to defend the case and end up costing the patent trolls many millions of dollars?
Austin Biaselli
10.10.2022How did they patent the concept of money
morallyambiguousnet
09.10.2022Reminds me of the Lotus vs. Quattro lawsuits from way back. It's a spreadsheet. It looks like a paper spreadsheet. How many ways are there to do that?
Lafeel Abriel
09.10.2022Know I have said this before, but you have such a lovely dog, Leonard.^^
And I agree, I hope these trolls get exactly what they deserve.
The Slithering Peanut
09.10.2022So what I got from this, is that MONEY is pretty much the only way to control copyright laws. No wonder Disney can change it at their whim, or how CCP still 'owns' the Conan Property.
vvlmm
09.10.2022I have no sympathy for any of the parties involved. The GTX are obvious scammers trying to exploit a patent that should not exist. And the developers are low-morality developers trying to double charge for this "Click Heroes 2", a game you are suppose to both pay for pre-order but also to buy in-game currency. Why are gamers so gullible? You buy games then pay for microtransactions? Idiots.
ManufacturedLack
09.10.2022I have some leading questions. Am i required to know the law? How many laws exist? Who knows the law? Is a violation a crime? Is involuntary servitude lawful? Are forced contracts lawful? Is freedom of association a privilege or a right? Do i have right to question my accuser at a court of law? What is the purpose of the witness protection program? Why can only heinous murderous gangsters use the law to draw out and bring forth the man or woman claiming the gangster do wrong? Why can't we use the same law, to draw out and bring forth any man or woman who claims we do wrong?
Andrew Kent
09.10.2022I heard this described years ago as at the very beginning of the online era basically a rash of people/companies took common practices in the "real world" but said doing it with a computer and then surrounding that process with a lot of technical jargon made it patentable. A lot of these patents are still out there doing damage but many that have been challenged have fallen over on closer legal examination and challenge.
Sandwich247
09.10.2022Are those cookie jars in the background? Are they real cookies? What does one person need so many cookies for?
Phaedruses
09.10.2022If Apple and Google have settled with these patent trolls, wouldn't this attempt at double dipping be a violation of said agreement?
David Bean
09.10.2022I really don't think it's an excuse that lawyers working at the patent office weren't sufficiently tech-savvy to know whether or not the processes being described were novel. Determining that was their job; if they weren't competent to do it, they shouldn't have been. It's not enough to take out the patent trolls. The people who approved the invalid patents, and the people who appointed and managed them, need to be drummed out of the legal profession. They can flip burgers, or sell used cars, or something, but a failure at that level has to be career-ending.
Robert Rosenthal
09.10.2022Leonard French, you probably know more about technology than 98% of the lawyers out there.
Of course I have no idea how deep your tech skills go, but from the stuff in your office and having heard you talk about some stuff, it's apparent you must be familiar with at least the basics. Glad to have you around. 🙂
Steven Hughes
08.10.2022The goodest boy… love the puppy!
Donald McKenney
08.10.2022inb4 Apple has been a patent troll for decades. They've been making ridiculously abstract patents for years. "wake up toggle on the front of the device" Like stfu Apple. XD
Phil Boswell
08.10.2022I couldn't find this highly relevant link anywhere in the top comments: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/patent-troll-doubles-down-now-accuses-clicker-heroes-maker-of-libel/
Gitami
08.10.2022I wish Pleisoraus can sue these patent trolls for attorney fees for drafting just the response letters.
neruomir
08.10.2022Its insane that the accuser is not responsible to pay all incurred legal expenses of the defendant in the case of a false accusation. I have never understood the US legal system were justice is only available to those citizens who can pay for it. It's essentially greymail.
Edward Norton
08.10.2022Holding back information is bad, good on the troll for showing off his hand. Truth is important
Koffin Kat
08.10.2022Hey Leonard, any chance you'd take a look at the developers of PlayerUnkowns BattleGround wanting to sue games that feature frying pans for copyright infringement? I'm fairly certain you would have a lot of intersting things to say about that ridiculous case 🙂
Kratos
08.10.2022I would love to see them try this with Com2us.
Vena
08.10.2022hmm I wonder If patent can be challenge, why not start company that threat patent trolls that we will sue them if they will not pay off. Do you rather pay us a money or lose your patent? 🙂